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22 Messages

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250 Points

Sun, Oct 25, 2020 9:37 PM

Lightroom Classic v10: Poor photo in the library and develop module - smart previews

I have a problem with version 10.0,
the photo is of poor quality in the library and in the develop module. I use smart previews (the disk with the original photos is disconnected).
smart previews in version 10.0 have poorer quality than in version 9.4
When I install the older version (9.4), the same photo with the same preset is of better quality (also smart previews).

It looks like there is a higher grain in the photo
Here are photos exported from smart previews.

Tested on: Mac pro 2013 (6core, 16gb ram, D500)

Macbook Pro 2014 2,7 ghz 4 core, 16gb ram

10.0:

9.4:

Photo exported after attaching a disk with the original photo:

Responses

Official Solution

Adobe Administrator

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10.9K Messages

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143.5K Points

1 y ago

This has been confirmed by the team.

Until a fix is issued your workaround is to disable the Smart Preview workflow. 

  • Preferences>Perfomance | Develop
  • Uncheck 'Use Smart Previews instead of Originals for image editing'

1 Message

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60 Points

This problem isn't only during Smart Previews for me. I don't use Smart Previews and I'm facing the grain resolution issue.

29 Messages

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222 Points

1 y ago

 Hi all,

Problem is a little bit hard to explain so I've made a screen capture video to show what I'm talking about.

Basically since the new update images that have grain applied have VERY bad previews that make the photos look much more grainy than they actually are  until you zoom in and then zoom back which corrects the problem. If however you click away from that photo and go back to it the original awful preview comes back. Take a look at the video, I hope it makes sense.

This is ultra irritating for me as I often edit hundreds of photos at once and don't zoom in and out of each one as that causes Lightroom to generate a full size preview which takes a while. 

Thanks!

Note: This comment was created from a merged conversation originally titled Lightroom Classic image previews with grain are very very very bad

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

The only accurate way to view your images is in Develop module and at 1:1 or greater. All other modules use a different and less accurate preview architecture. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

1.2K Messages

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13.1K Points

The reason that Andrew's suggestion works is because it is forcing Lightroom to rebuild the preview but one at a time. So the solution is to force rebuild them all. 

Depending on the size of your library, this suggestion could take some time. Rebuild all your previews. My 650GB library of 35,000 images took a couple hours (6-core xeon, 64GB ram). This is primarily a cpu bound process so if you're on an i3 laptop with 8GB of ram and 100,000 photos, it could take a day.

 

My personal experience is that rebuilding the previews with each new version (8, 9, 10...) results in a more pleasant editing experience. 

 

In Catalog Settings, my preferences are: 

  • Standard Preview Size - Auto (3840px)
  • Preview Quality - High 
  • Automatically Discard 1:1 Previews - Never 

There's a very good "how to" at PetaPixel.com titled How To Rebuild Lightroom Previews....

29 Messages

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222 Points

Hi Andrew, I get that but I've used Lightroom for years and years and this problem is brand new to the new update. It's not a slight difference, it's a massive level of variance that's new.

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

Some have found love after resetting the ACR cache data in preferences. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

29 Messages

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222 Points

Thanks, I'll look into this if need be. Just wanted to post this here as I'm a professional photographer, editing hundreds of thousands of photos a year and this is the first time I've ever seen this issue. 

Also I just imported some brand new images into Lightroom to do a test and it's the same issue so I don't think a rebuild would change anything.

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

1 y ago

They all look nearly identical on my browser. 

The only accurate way to view this image data is in Develop, at 1:1 or greater. All other modules use a different preview architecture and zooming out is always less accurate due to subsampling. But again, all three posted images look the same here. 

88 Messages

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1.4K Points

I thought the same until I zoomed in with my browser.  Take a look at the bride's skin.  It's significantly more textured/grainy in the 10.0 export, just as the OP describes.  Once you see it you can spot it everywhere in the image.

Also this goes beyond mere viewing in a LR module.  These are exports from the smart preview that show significant differences between 9.4 and 10.0.  That is reasonable cause for concern.

(edited)

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

I don't see any zoomed in option.

This could be a similar issue discussed here:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/lightroom-classic/horrible-noise-in-library-module/5f91ccdb6880ca65525984be?commentId=5f93288235f40c3a18c908bb

Like there, this OP should provide a DNG with all the edits and upload for others to examine. When I did so, I was able to generate previews correctly. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

88 Messages

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1.4K Points

I zoom in on a webpage in Safari with a 2-finger gesture on my touchpad.

if you don’t have a touchpad you can use Command-+ or any of the other options mentioned here:

https://www.cnet.com/news/zooming-options-for-safari-in-os-x/

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

I'm on Safari, can zoom in from the View menu, still see no difference. But what the OP needs to do is either upload higher resolution screen captures (or links to the original) or ideally, show us each module at 1:1 otherwise no one should expect a match. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

88 Messages

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1.4K Points

Remember these aren't screenshots of a LR module, these are exports from LR using the smart preview.  Yes, they should match.

The differences are readily apparent from the images provided.  Let's see if this forum will show an animated GIF:

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

1 y ago

To see the full size image on Windows I right-click and select 'View Image.' You can then download the file or click the + icon to Zoom 100%. Here it is at 200% Zoom to better see the noise artifacts.

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

1 y ago

"So the question perhaps for Adobe is, what initially is used for the preview before the ACR cache updates a higher quality preview in Develop or ACR, could it be very low rez or 'corrupted', thus for some users, it shows a poor quality. "

Once I was able to duplicate the issue I found a Smart Preview anomaly.

1) With the original raw file connected build a Smart Preview and Zoom to 100% view in both Library and Develop modules. Make sure you allow time for the preview build to complete in each module.

2) Set Zoom back to Fit view and switch to the Develop module.

3) Take the original file offline by changing its name to _DSB0864.dng.HOLD.

4) In the Develop module apply any setting change such as a change in the Basic panel.

5) Switch back to the Library module and Zoom to 100%. Observe the 100% preview is now smaller and matches the Smart Preview image size.

6) Switch back to the Develop module and Zoom to 100%. Observe the preview size is the same as the full-size original file and it remains the same size when applying edits in the Develop module.

Apparently the camera raw cache is not being updated and one would expect the image quality to be poor since the original file is missing, but that's not the case on my Windows 10 system. I tested the above workflow steps using LrC 9.4 and it exhibits the same behavior. Next I checked the much older LR 5.7.1 and it behaves as expected with the Develop module 100% (1to1) preview the same size as the Smart Preview when the original raw file is taken offline.

Not sure what to make of this, but clearly something has changed in the camera raw cache behavior.

(edited)

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

After some more testing the above mentioned Smart Preview behavior is by design. Adobe added caching of full-size Develop module previews to allow reviewing multiple image files with minimal preview building delay.

After disconnecting the original image file you will need to view a different image file in the Develop module and then go back to the test file, which should now show a reduced size Smart Preview image.

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

1 y ago

I believe I've found the cause of "poor quality" when using Smart Previews with the original files disconnected. In the case here and the other mentioned post Grain Effect was applied. It appears the Grain Effect tool applies a fixed size grain pattern regardless of the image file's resolution. So a 24 megapixel image file and a 4.3 megapixel Smart Preview will have the same size grain pattern mask applied. When viewed on screen the grain in the smaller Smart Preview image file will appear much larger and more pronounced.

To test this I created 6000 x 4000 and 2560 x 1707 test files, which are representative of the OP's raw file and Smart Preview size.  Inside LrC I applied the same Grain settings to both files. The below comparison clearly demonstrates the issue.

I tried matching the above test files and the required settings are not very intuitive. One possible solution would be for Adobe to add "automatic scaling" to the Grain tool so that it applies the same results, using the same settings, regardless of image size. 

6000 x 4000: Amount 100, Size 50, Roughness 50

2560 x 1707: Amount 35, Size 0, Roughness 100

(Right-click and select View Image)

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

@todd_shaner_6660895 

I do agree that using some grain edits seems to be key but I think more testing is in order from those reporting these issues. 

FWIW. None of my testing was done with Smart Previews 'disconnected' from the original. Again, be useful if those making these reports would let us know if and how they are using Smart Previews. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

88 Messages

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1.4K Points

Again, be useful if those making these reports would let us know if and how they are using Smart Previews. 

The OP said in his first post this was a case of using smart previews while the original was disconnected.

Nice work Todd Shaner!

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

No such admission from the original OP reporting this issue earlier:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/lightroom-classic/lightroom-classic-image-previews-with-grain-are-very-very-very-bad/5f90576d35f40c2520b9ea58

Last post asks a useful question from an Adobe person:

Hi @MokusoUK ,

 

Do you have this preference (Use Smart Preview instead of Originals for image editing) checked ? If yes, could you uncheck that and let us know if you are still facing this issue ?

 

Thanks,

Arjun

Again, be useful if those making these reports would let us know if and how they are using Smart Previews. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

2.3K Messages

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26.4K Points

And the answer to Arjun on the other thread and what others should test:

Hey Arjun, thanks for reaching out. I just checked and I did have that checked. I've unchecked the option now and it's kind of fixed it. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

29 Messages

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222 Points

Hi Andrew, as you're referencing me here please keep in mind that the majority of people coming here for help (me included) don't spend our time on this forum usually and therefore it's not initially apparent what information would be useful to share. I've found usually when asking for help keeping the post simple and to the point is usually the best initial option until someone asks for more information (which I would have been happy to provide)

(edited)

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

1 y ago

The actual OP fotimelasku in his very first post above said, "I have a problem with version 10.0, the photo is of poor quality in the library and in the develop module. I use smart previews (the disk with the original photos is disconnected)."

22 Messages

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250 Points

Yes. I use smart previews as I wrote.
Exact workflow: from the SD card, I choose to import to LR with the destination folder on the external disk (the originals are moved there). The import is set to create smart previews. When the import is complete, I will unmount the original photo disc.

You are right about the grain size. The smaller the photo, the smaller the grain must be (although the same value)

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

I did further testing using Smart Previews with previous version  LrC 9.4 and can confirm it does NOT exhibit the issue. Interestingly my 6000x4000 and 2560x1707 test image files exhibit the same issue as LrC 10.0 in 9.4. So it appears the grain mask is still applied the same regardless of image size. However, Smart Previews have the grain properly scaled down to match the smaller image size in LrC 9.4, but not in 10.0. Confusing yes, but I think that about sums it up.

Adobe Administrator

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10.9K Messages

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143.5K Points

6 m ago

Updates to Lightroom Classic and the Lightroom Ecosystem products for Desktop, Mobile and Web were released today and contain a fix for this issue.

Please refresh your Creative Cloud application and install your update when it becomes available. Thank you for your patience.

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

6 m ago

Rikk, The Smart Preview difference in Grain rendering appears to be improved, but a new issue has been introduced. The Develop module no longer properly renders the Grain settings, which appear much more pronounced in the Library module and exported files. This is without using Smart Previews. I tested with GPU enabled and set to Off with LrC restarted and the issue persists.

The below screenshots are with LrC 10.2 using Grain settings Amount 100, Size 50, and Roughness 100.

Adobe Administrator

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10.9K Messages

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143.5K Points

This should probably be on a new thread, Todd.

Adobe Photography Products

Quality Engineering - Customer Advocacy

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

Rikk, I respectfully disagree. What's being discussed here concerns rendering issues with the Grain Effects tool. Previously, this only occurred when using Smart Previews. That appears to be fixed in LrC 10.2, but now preview rendering with the full-size original image file is displaying the Smart Preview rendering issue. That is the Develop module preview appears to have less Grain Effect applied than the Library module preview and exported files.

My guess is the changes made to correct the Smart Preview Grain Effects issue has caused this new issue.

Adobe Administrator

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10.9K Messages

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143.5K Points

It belongs on a different thread regardless. 

Adobe Photography Products

Quality Engineering - Customer Advocacy

29 Messages

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222 Points

Rikk taking absolutely no nonsense ha. 

Regardless, I still have the same issues with previews of grain for the first few seconds before my computer renders the file correctly (I don't use Smart Previews anymore because I was advised not to here before so this is on normal previews). 

It does seem faster than before to load out of the issue but it's still there when it wasn't on previous versions of LR.

Here's a screen recording all the way from the import screen to what I see to show you.

https://youtu.be/J2iC_1bjrWs

Basically if I apply a preset with grain on import the grain will process incorrectly until I zoom into the image, I then have to wait for it to fully load before zooming back out to see it normally. If I import the photos without a preset and then add one afterwards this isn't the case, but this is obviously an irritating workaround.

Thanks!

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

I've created a new problem report for the LrC 10.2 Develop module Grain Effects preview rendering issue. This is separate from the Smart Previews rendering issue.

https://feedback.photoshop.com/conversations/lightroom-classic/lrc-102-grain-effects-render-incorrectly-in-develop-module/60511d813facef17f7f33996

(edited)