pete_myers's profile

42 Messages

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530 Points

Wed, Jan 24, 2018 9:36 PM

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Photoshop 19.1: Histogram behaviors are different from prior versions

I am experiencing problems with the histogram in 19.1.0. I am a mid-career fine art photographer by profession, and have been a PS user since Version 2. I am also a member of the Authors Guild, and write on photography for various publications. I have been purposely hanging back at PS 2015.5.1, as it has served me well. Yesterday, I decided enough, is enough, and installed 19.1.0.

This first histogram is at Cache Level 1 for the file values of a 36Kx24K pixel 16-bit grayscale file.

 

Please notice how there are "tails" (lines) out each side of the main body of data, indicating that there are small levels of data almost to the limits of range. For me, it is important to know about these tails exist so that I do not end up creating a clipped condition when applying a curve function. We use S-curve limiters to compact the tails without clipping.

Here is the exact same file at Cache Level 1 for the same 36Kx24K pixel 16-bit grayscale file, but this time in 19.1.0.

 

Please notice how there is no tail indicating data extending to the left, and rather a botched one going to the right. This is not helpful! You will also notice that the Mean and Standard Deviation values differ.

Further, it use to be nice to be able to take the cursor and scan across the histogram with a display of level and count showing up for whatever was under he cursor. This seems to have gone away in 2015.5, and is even worse in 19.1.0.

Thanks for your help.

Pete

Accepted Solution

Official Solution

Adobe Administrator

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15 Messages

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258 Points

7 m ago

Hi,

 

We're happy to announce the release of Photoshop 22.4 which should include the fix for this issue. To update Photoshop to the latest version, you can check: https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-cloud/help/creative-cloud-updates.html

 

For information on other issues fixed with this update, please check: https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/fixed-issues.html

 

Regards,

Nikunj

13 Messages

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144 Points

@Nikunj_Muglani

Nikunji, I am so grateful to you and the team at Adobe for addressing this issue. I have downloaded 22.4 for Mac and delighted to report that the histograms are working properly once again. It has already contributed positively to my image-making, and I feel once again that I have the full benefits of PhotoShop.

Similarly, the intercept line in the Curves function is always working great.

However, I must sadly report a bug. When the Curves function is up and running, and I got to refresh the histogram while experimenting with the Curve, it will not update properly. I have to press the refresh button on the histogram as many as a dozen times before the histogram will finish and display. This did not occur previously, so I would assume that the 22.4 update of the histogram function has fixes the data tails issue, but introduced a new bug. My apologies.

Never the less, I am delighted that the tails in the histogram data now show properly. It is a great relief! My sincere thanks.

Pete Myers

Santa Fe

497 Messages

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10.6K Points

4 y ago

Hi Pete

I myself am rather confused about histograms in Photoshop, since they often don't seem to display the actual histogram, and often it seems that the histogram under a curves layer is different than the histogram displayed in the histogram panel. Perhaps someone who has looked into this more can comment.

But, in case this helps, you are aware of that you can use the option key (at least it's option on Macintosh) when you move the terminal point of a curve adjustment, and Photoshop will show you exactly which pixels (and, even better, which color channels) are bumping into 0 or 255? I find this to be tremendously useful, and I now just use the histogram to make a general assessment of a photo, and not to analyze which pixels are near or at clipping.

Employee

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70 Messages

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1.4K Points

4 y ago

Pete-
Something looks a little weird. The 2 histograms have different Means and Standard Deviations, which would imply that they aren't quite the same image. Any chance the color profile is different in the second screen shot?

-Tom Attix

42 Messages

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530 Points

Hi Tom:

NO, that is the exact same image opened up in 2015.1, then again in the current version. Gray Gamma 2.2. I very carefully have checked the color management and calibrations are exactly the same for each. Try it yourself.I think you will be able to confirm it too.
That is why there is a bug. There should also be an OR function that show any value greater then Zero at a level has a minimum display of at least 1 on the scale so that the data tails can be seen. This is a HUGE issue. We need to be able to see the data tails at a level of 1 for anything other then zero.
Also, before 2015, the cursor would should what ever level it was over, and the statistics for that level. That was the most useful. I am not sure what is going on now, but it doesnt help the tool At least there should be a menu that allows the user to configure statistics as per all the previous versions. Pete

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Why is the Curves function and Histogram Function still not fixed??!!.

I have been using PhotoShop since Version 2.

For a while I froze at 2015.5 because that was the last version of PhotoShop in which the Histogram function displayed the data "tails" properly, as it had since the beginning of PhotoShop. Basically, it is a logical OR function that shows just above the baseline that there is greater then one pixel of data at a particular level. To demonstrate, the histogram in the Curves function does show like this, even in the current version.

But I finally rolled forward to PhotoShop 2020 only to find that the Histogram function is still not fixed! At least there should be a user option button that enables "show tails".

Then in 2020, if you have the Histogram function up and open the Curves function, the moment you do something on Curves, the histogram DISAPPEARS from the desktop. Boom! Gone. So you can't use the precision of the Histogram function in supporting Curves without constantly re-opening it.

And as per my post the other day, the Intersection Line in the Curves function does not show even when user select ON. It just doesn't work. This has been confirmed by another user.

This is basic stuff! These functions have worked properly since the beginning of time, and for the advanced PhotoShop user are extremely vital in use. How is it that these problems are still not fixed?????????!!!!!!! The Histogram and Curves functions are as basic as breathing in PS.

Pete

Adobe Administrator

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16K Messages

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296.7K Points

Can you post the source document you're using to generate the histogram?

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

42 Messages

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530 Points

Hi Jeff:
What source document? You mean the photo? Any photo will show tails like this.
Sorry if I am missing your question---not trying to be an idiot.

Pete

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

Pete, I'm not seeing the issue on my Windows 10 system running PS 21.1.2. In the below histogram there are tails showing. As Jeffrey Tranberry requested please upload an example image file to a file sharing site and we can compare histogram views. Thank you.


Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

I just realized your image is 16 bit grayscale. Here's the same image with those settings.

42 Messages

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530 Points

It sure isnt showing on the Mac. How about you folks upload a photo that I can download, and I will show you what I am seeing on my end. Monochrome please.

And yes, that is what I would be hoping to see. So this is good. We are getting to the problem. It should also be noted that the histogram in the Curves function DOES show the tails, while the main stand alone Histogram function does not.

Also, are you able to confirm that the histogram window disappears the moment the Curves function is opened or touched?

Thanks!

Pete

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39.2K Points

2 y ago

Intersection Lines not visible in the Curves panel has been reported here:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/intersection-line-in-curves-not-working

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

I just pulled up a monochrome negative of size 15,254 X 10169 pixels, 16-bit monochrome.

The histogram below at Cache 1 is showing data between level 49 and 206. At those endpoints, the statistical probe is showing 0.10% at 49 and 99.98% at 206. The actual data using the same probe is going from level 19 (2 pixels) to 217 (10 pixels) and should be showing using a logical OR function so that you see the complete tail.

The Curves Function of the same image is showing the data tails doing to Level 23 and 212, so that is not exactly right either, but certainly better then showing 49 to 206.

OS 10.15.4
MacPro 2019 8-Core 96GB memory
PS 21.1.2

So what is missing, and has been since 2015.5, is the Logical OR function of showing ANY pixel count at a level, so that you can see the full extent of the tails. That way you can set the end points just outside of the tails, then use the Curves function to pull the tails in to the photo without making a hole by just clipping data.

This is a 155mp monochrome file. 0.01% of that is a 15KB hole. It does matter. And what you can't see, you can't fix. As it is, I have to run the dang probe along the histogram to find the invisible end points, the 0.01% point, and the 99.99% point.

And I just confirmed again that with my version and setup, the histogram disappears from the desktop the moment the Curves function is activated. If I pull up the histogram again, the moment I touch the curves function, it poooooooofs. So as is, I have to set up my Curves function, then pull up the Histogram function to check how the curve will work, but any revision to the curve will pooooooof the histogram function, and I have to pull it back up for any further checks.

I am sure the histogram stayed up in PS 2018, as did the interception line.

Catalina nightmares?

The last version with the Histogram working correctly was 2015.5 Mac OS.


Adobe Administrator

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16K Messages

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296.7K Points

Can you provide your source negative or use the file I've provided above so we're all looking at the same thing?

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

126 Messages

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2K Points

The two images above, are displaying the histogram at very different scales.  The histogram output has about 1.25 times as many pixels in the x direction and half as many in the y direction.  The tails seen could easily be in how the last row of the plot is computed.  I have wondered a number of times what has changed between version of PS and the histogram but never compared to the Curves or Levels displays.  I would recommend that the bottom row display everything below a certain level not just how the levels fall.
RONC 

126 Messages

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2K Points

The bottom row must show as white if there is a any pixel has the particular value. With the user expecting to be able to see the black and white points it is a necessity. It worked that way for a long time but I think it was changed and no one noticed
Someone needs to build a synthetic to test it. Because the program is working with normalized counts (scaled relative to peak count), any value greater than zero at an amplitude should be white in this example and for color data, the idea must be applied to for each color.
RONC

126 Messages

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2K Points

Guys,

Here is a synthetic test.  Image is 512 x 512 in one shade of gray.  I inserted a square of different sizes with a darker gray.  If square is less than 64 x 64, the histogram doesn't show the information.  I tested 64 x 64 shown, 32 x 32, and 16 x 16.  It should show in all cases in my view of how to do it.  I think the monitor settings (scaling on laptop screens) also could affect what is seen.  



I think it is time for someone to view the software.  This probably affects histogram, levels, and curves in PS, LR, and ACR.  Other programs  might have the problem but I have no idea which.

Let me know if you need to discuss.

RONC

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39.2K Points

Here's a 512 x 512 image with 32 x 32 lower density square. It looks normal and as expected except the Curves Adjustment layer histogram lines appear darker, but still visible.
I can't duplicate the issue with this image.



I suggest resetting your PS Preferences file as the next trouble shooting step. Close PS and rename the Prefs.psp as shown below and then restart PS. This will allow easily restoring it if of no help.

Users/[user name]/Library/Preferences/Adobe Photoshop [version] Settings/Prefs.psp.OLD

If the issue persists I suggest downloading Jeff's image file and see if it also exhibits the issue.

Adobe Administrator

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16K Messages

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296.7K Points

2 y ago

"Also, are you able to confirm that the histogram window disappears the moment the Curves function is opened or touched?"

I've also not been able to reproduce the histogram disappear either. A screen recording might help us try and repro. There may be some setup differences that are causing this problem. I've tried panels docked, panels floating, app frame on/off, etc.

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

OK, how do I do that for you? I have never done a screen recording before, so need pointed to some instructions for Mac OS. I would be happy to do so.

I am curious if you are on OS 10.15.4 with PS 21.1.2? I think I am rolled as far forward as is possible, and I wonder if there is a Catalina bug that is driving the disappearing histogram window---that would not surprise me.

I have a WACOM connected, and will make sure to disconnect it on next test to make sure that is not the issue. That too could be buggy from Catalina.

And have I illustrated my point about the tails function on the Histogram enough to understand? Let me know if I can be of further help. It really is critical to image-making to be able to see how far out those tails go, even if they are only showing at a few hundred pixels or less per level. 

Adobe Administrator

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16K Messages

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296.7K Points

Launch QuickTime, Select File > New Screen Recording... then export the movie after you're done recording. You can record audio if you want to talk through the process. Post to drop box or some other file sharing platform and post the URL.

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

Update: I do not have the WACOM tablet connected or the driver software installed on this computer yet, so that eliminates a side-show variable.

I reproduced the disappearing histogram problem once again. Touch the Curves function, and the histogram goes pooooooooooof!

Champion

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

2 y ago

Pete, download Jeff's image file and see if it also exhibits the same issues. This will help determine if something in your files is causing the issue.

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

Sorry for the delay---out of the office today. Will get to the screen recording done tomorrow.

I knew someone was going to say "this will help determine if something in your files is causing the issue." I told my wife that was going to come up. NOT the issue.

The irritation is that I have been using PhotoShop since Version 2. I have 26-years in as a fine art photographer and all of my work has undergone digital post production in PS from the get-go. I pioneered digital monochrome photography in 2002 with the Kodak DCS 760m. I have written for most of the major photo magazines over the years. There isnt anything wrong with my image files, and I would never suggest an issue without testing across a vast array of image file types. What I have posted are typical examples of those failures.

The histogram issue has been a mess since 2015.5.

I sincerely doubt I have anything oddly configured in PS 2020 or the OS given that the computer is new, Apple installed the OS, and PS is installed fresh. My wife is a Director of Information Technology, use to work for Apple (among others), and watched in amusement as the histogram completely disappeared from the desktop each time I made an adjustment with the Curves function yesterday.

Just saying....

Pete

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2.4K Messages

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39.2K Points

Pete, we are trying to help you, but can only do so if we can duplicate the issues you are seeing on our systems.

First step towards doing that is to share an image file and compare screenshots of the Histogram displays. I'm asking again for you to please download Jeffrey Tranberry's image file (see below link) and post screenshots of the Histograms as seen on your system. If you prefer to use one of your own files please do so and post the share link and histogram screenshots as viewed on your system. This is the minimum of what's need to assist with your observations and request.

https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/0b69dc6d-9649-4c70-4bef-58523b1dd1c7

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

I have an update on the disappearing histogram function. It only does so when the screen is rotated 90 degrees and is in portrait mode. It does NOT disappear in normal horizontal orientation.

OK, lets see if that helps. I do a lot of vertical work, so most often have the screen rotated into portrait mode---hence why the bug is bugging me and not most users. :)

Pete

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39.2K Points

Pete, I can not duplicate this issue on my Windows 10 system. The histogram does not disappear with the display rotated to portrait mode when adjusting the Curves palette or the Curves Adjustment layer. Perhaps it is a Mac issue, which Jeffrey Tranberry can check.

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

Hi Jeff:
Trying again this morning, darn if the histogram function goes away once again in both horizontal and vertical modes! I can't believe it. I clearly saw the histogram function stay in place when I oriented in landscape mode and adjusted the Curves function last night. And frankly, I was so excited at the discovery that I forgot to look and see if the intersection line was work or not.

So this morning, I powered up in landscape mode, and the same disappearing Histogram function occurred as soon as I touched the Curves function.

I switched back to Portrait orientation, and the same thing happened. Then back to landscape, and the same thing happened.

But I DID see the Histogram function stay up while the Curves function was in use last night, and it was only in landscape mode. Why the heck it isnt working this morning is part of the grand mystery.

Pete

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

Hi Jeff:

It could be "my bad" on the disappearing histogram function, but I don't know the intent of the designers. I did figure out what is going on and the work around.

I have a single column tool bar on the right side of the display where I dock commonly used functions, such as the histogram.

If I press on the histogram icon in the tool bar, the histogram pops up on the edge of the tool bar as planned.

If I use the Curves function, Levels function, filtering, etc, the moment I have those functions up and touch them, the histogram pooooooooooofs and goes away.

If I take the same histogram function, and drag it anywhere else on the desktop, it stays up and there are no issues (other then the intercept line not working on the Curves function, and the tails not showing properly on the histogram).

So is this "as designed" with the tools column? Are those functions suppose to disappear the moment some other function is used? If so, then totally my bad for not understanding that.

This is working in both portrait and landscape mode, so it is a solid diagnosis. Whether a bug, I don't know. In my little pea-sized brain, if you click on a tool column icon and the function comes up, it should stay up until dismissed. But perhaps it is design to minimize "clutter" on the desktop?

Pete

So we are down to the issue of the intercept line in Curves not working, and the trail not properly showing in the histograms (main histogram, Curves, Levels). As a minimum, we need a "show tails" option for the histograms, and obviously the intercept line needs to work in Curves. Need more info or are we good to go on those issues?

Adobe Administrator

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16K Messages

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296.7K Points

That's a good clue. It sounds like bug - but I can't repro offhand even having the histogram on that side. There might be other ingredients to make it happen. Can you make a screenshot of your entire screen with the curves dialog and histogram open before you touch it to make it disappear and one after? That might give me more clues.

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

42 Messages

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530 Points

Will do!

Pete

126 Messages

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2K Points

Did you look for this?   I posted it above.

For the disappearing Histogram see this parameter:



Open Histogram and right click on the >> on its title bar.  Bet if turned off the panel won't go away.  Might want to ask for another option.

RONC

42 Messages

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530 Points

Thanks Ronald---that looks solid. I will give it a go, and I bet it will work.

126 Messages

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2K Points

Pete,
Please peruse my comments above relating to tails in the histograms.  I also think there has been a change in the display of the histograms and it subdues the tails (low count bins).

RONC

42 Messages

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530 Points

2 y ago

Per Jeff's request:

Steady state before selecting Curves (Cache 1)
Curves function selected, histogram Cache 1
Just after curves point moved---poooooof, gone
I will go and try Ron's suggestion.